Print Story "Instantaneous Water Heaters vs. Tank Water Heaters"
Technology
By lylehsaxon (Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:14:02 AM EST) (all tags)
To start with the conclusion, instantaneous water heaters rule.  The only thing better about tank water heaters, is if you turn the hot water tap off and on rapidly, the tank could care less, while the same action seriously stresses a machine that goes from idling to action with each opening of the tap, and back to idle with each closing of the tap.


I grew up with 40-gallon (later 50-gallon, and one 30-gallon) gas-fired hot water tanks that would heat the 40 gallons with a raging blaze of blue flames, and then drop back to a flickering pilot light when a certain temperature was reached.  Hot water was pulled from the top of the tank, which was replenished by a cold water feed at the bottom of the tank, and when a water temperature sensor detected that the temperature had fallen to a certain point, the raging blue blaze would come back to heat the tank of water again.  A hot-water-run-dry cold tank would take something like 20-30 minutes to come back up to fully heated temperature.

The tank was hidden away out-of-sight and out-of-mind in either a basement or garage, and the only thing that made you think about it was taking too long of a shower, which would run the hot water out and require a waiting period before the household had hot water again.  First in to take a shower and you were likely to incur the wrath of subsequent shower users who ran out of hot water ("You used up all the hot water!"), and second in and you were likely to complain to the first user, "You used up almost all the hot water!  It went cold on me after about two minutes!", etc.

So, one day in 1984, I climbed onto a Tokyo-bound 747, had dinner, watched a movie, fell asleep, and woke up in a land of instantaneous water heaters.  Strangely, in that era of so many things being "Made in Japan", I noticed at the built-in-1928 YMCA I stayed at, that it had a "Made in USA" OTIS elevator and "Made in USA" silverware!!!  I don't think I'd ever seen "Made in USA" silverware before - everything I used in the US was "Made in Japan", so I cross the Pacific and my first meal is with "Made in USA" silverware - in Japan!

But I digress.  I got onto that line of thinking due to my experience of renting a room in a house in Chigasaki from a man who was long-term house-sitting (once a week) for the owners, who were friends of his parents.  The owners had apparently lived overseas for some years and were keen to carry back to Japan some of the luxury that they had experienced while in the US.  So they had their new house built with central heating (via a kerosene-burning furnace that was fed from a large tank behind the house that cost something like - at the current exchange rate - $500 to fill), and a US-made 40-gallon gas-fired water heater.  How did those air and water heating systems transplant over here?  In a word, badly!  First, let's look at the central heating system.

The problem was, the house construction was not in line with the concept of heating the whole house (something practically unheard of in Tokyo at the time), so the house wasn't properly insulated (if it was insulated at all) and the heat just went through the walls and ceiling.  The furnace produced enough heat to warm the house, but since the house couldn't hold that heat, the furnace just ran constantly.  Energy costs were then (and still are) quite a bit higher here than in the US, so the only time we used the furnace was when guests were invited over, and then the furnace was fired up for a few hours.  Otherwise we left that thing shut down, lest it bankrupt us and make us sleep under a bridge somewhere.  Better to sleep in freezing cold under a roof than throw all your money away on sleeping in a warm house for a few months, followed by being kicked out for lack of rent money and having to sleep under a bridge!  Space heaters slightly reduced the inside chill, but they lacked enough power to actually warm a room up.

Now - the water heater!  In contrast to the nearly useless central heating system (if we had been filthy-dirty-stinking-rich, we might have actually used that on a daily basis), we did use the water heater, but the basic procedure was to fire the thing up 30 minutes before taking a bath/shower, and then to shut it off (completely shut it off, including the pilot light) right after taking a shower.  Used in this way, the gas bill was manageable, but still higher than it would have been with an instantaneous water heater (provided it was used correctly).  (Thinking back on those US-made things at a time when imported things here were pricey and rare, and how I ran into them in my first months after crossing the Pacific, it's almost as though there was some magnetic force putting a US-made biped in contact with US-made machinery.)

Now - finally we come to instantaneous water heaters.  Wonderful devices, with many advantages over tank water heaters, and with only a few disadvantages.  First, the advantages.

Since they heat fully cold water to warm/hot temperatures as it comes from the cold water supply, there is no warm up period and no running out of hot water.  In a multi-person household, you can take one shower after another and no one ever (ever) runs out of hot water.  When they are completely shut down (every night, etc.), there is zero gas consumption (in contrast to the constantly burning pilot light in a tank water heater).

Disadvantages:  Instantaneous water heaters are more complicated than tank water heaters, and so the initial cost is probably higher.  I'm not sure about the cost, but I am fairly certain about the complexity leading to more possibilities for malfunction.  Over the 23 years or so I've been using them, I've had to have a few of them repaired or replaced.  And... one of the advantages can be a disadvantage as well - never running out of hot water means that if you get to thinking about something while taking a shower and the clock speeds up on you, you can end up wasting a lot of water and gas through overuse.

Oh!  And one other disadvantage (at least with the system I'm using now).  The hot water is not mixed with cold - rather the hot water the machine generates is used directly, so you adjust the temperature of the heated water output - you don't mix it with cold water.  This is done in two ways.  It has three different flame settings, and fine-tuning adjustments are made by controlling water flow - more water is cooler and less water is hotter.  In theory, this setup should work fine, but the gradation between gas settings one, two, and three is such that setting-one is virtually useless (too cold even on the hottest day with the minimum water flow setting); setting-two is usable in the summer if the water flow is turned way down; and setting three, while perfect for the coldest days of winter, requires typhoon levels of water flow to keep the water from being too hot in the summer.  So when the weather is warm, as it is now, you end up bouncing between flame-two with not quite enough water coming out, and flame-three with a typhoon water blast.  It would be perfect if flame-one was brought up to the current flame-two level and flame-two was brought up to a level between the current flame-two and flame-three settings.

More than you wanted to know about water heaters....

Lyle (Hiroshi) Saxon
http://www5d.biglobe.ne.jp/~LLLtrs/

< Emotional rescue | Poem of the Day: Marlowe's Shepherd and Co., Day 6: "Invitation" >
"Instantaneous Water Heaters vs. Tank Water Heaters" | 17 comments (17 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
I looked into the instantaneous heaters a bit ago by lm (2.00 / 0) #1 Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:54:59 AM EST
The ones in the US have had some reliability issues and it's hard to find businesses willing to service them. I ended up calling Rheem to ask for local shops that installed them. They gave me three names. All three places recommended against them.

The other problem is water flow. When I looked at the market last, most of the options were only good for a single use. If you take a shower and wash the dishes at the same time, you aren't going to be happy. I can see how this would matter less in a number of countries that, unlike the US, don't have a household with 8 people showering at the same time that the clothes are being washed and the dishwasher run.

Or at least this was the case three years ago.

And tank heaters have one additional advantage that my mother pointed out to me. She moved up into the mountains of Washington where utilities are somewhat unreliable. When the water goes out, she's got fifty gallons of potable water on reserve in her basement thanks to her water heater.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic


Emergency water storage! by lylehsaxon (2.00 / 0) #2 Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 11:21:21 AM EST
I hadn't thought of that!  That aspect would be good over here in case of an earthquake knocking out the water mains.  (There are laws requiring apartment buildings to have large water tanks for just such an emergency, but the more the merrier if there's a shortage of water!)

The single user versus multiple-user aspect is also a good point, and one I should have mentioned.  While it's possible to have someone taking a shower and washing the dishes at the same time in my apartment, the dual-use means each person is getting less water than they want.  Three simultaneous uses sounds like a disaster!

Thanks for bringing that up, as it answered a question in my mind after writing that - namely "Why is the temperature set so high in water heaters?"  I assume the answer is that, since you're mixing cold water with it to bring it back down to a lower temperature, you're putting less of a demand on the hot water pipes.  That said, the house I stayed at here with a water tank only worked for single user, due to bad plumbing I think.  While taking a shower, if someone in the kitchen turned on the hot water there, the hot water almost completely shut down upstairs (another imported idea - usually bathrooms are downstairs in a two-story house here).

One question I've wondered about over the years, is - per unit of water - which system is more efficient?

As for reliability, being a renter has helped me in that I haven't had to pay for replacements.  The last time it was replaced, the building owners had every hot water heater in the building replaced at the same time - probably saving a lot of money per-unit.

Lyle

The shortest way home is the longest way 'round....
[ Parent ]

efficiency by lm (2.00 / 0) #5 Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:22:05 PM EST
The most efficient water heating system is point of service electric water heaters installed at every tap that uses hot water. But that method can get quite expensive with regards to equipment.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Electric or Gas? by lylehsaxon (2.00 / 0) #10 Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 01:20:15 AM EST
I would think gas would be more efficient - but then you have the problem of routing the exhaust outside.  In fact, the at-usage point gas-fired water heaters in Japan, were originally mounted over the sinks in a kitchen - as were the first few I used, with the exhaust just coming out the top of the device and a warning sticker suggesting that the kitchen exhaust fan be turned on when used.  Old Japanese apartments were pretty (air) leaky places anyway, so mostly it wasn't a hazard.  I remember once case of a whole family dieing from the fumes, but they had routed a hose from the heater into the bath, and they were using it for extended periods of time full on with no venting.  In my case, it was never on for more than about 30 seconds at a time (a little longer for a final rinse of the dishes), so I never bothered with the exhaust fan.

New types are hooked up to a centrally distributed hot water pipe and are mounted in the wall with the exhaust going outside.

Lyle

The shortest way home is the longest way 'round....
[ Parent ]

I would think gas would be more efficient by lm (2.00 / 0) #13 Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:09:37 AM EST
But `efficiency' can mean a lot of different things. Efficient with regards to the end user's utility bill? Efficient with regards to environmental impact? I would think that gas would be the environmental choice, but even that depends on how electricity is made in your area. Electricity has the benefit of being produced from a variety of sources. With regards to utility bills, that depends on the relative price of gas and electric.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Losses... by lylehsaxon (2.00 / 0) #14 Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:36:40 AM EST
I was thinking of efficiency in transferring the heat of the flame, or the heat of electric coils, to the water.  With gas, hot air is hitting a series of finned coils with water running through them.  With electricity, I suppose heated coils surround the water pipe.  Is it six of one and half-a-dozen of another, or does one method more effectively transfer heat?

Lyle

The shortest way home is the longest way 'round....
[ Parent ]

That's a question I can't answer by lm (2.00 / 0) #15 Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 12:53:50 PM EST
But I suppose someone, somewhere knows.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Good timing. by ambrosen (2.00 / 0) #3 Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 11:23:16 AM EST
I'm looking at flats at the moment, and the one I'm keen on has, I think, instantaneous water heating (a combi boiler, in UK speak), and nice though it is not to run out of hot water, my parents' takes ages to run hot. But as most modern UK installations are condensing boilers, the thermostat works fine: the water is always heated to 80 celsius, then mixed with cold water before it leaves the boiler, to go down to a safe temperature.



A transfer tank? by lylehsaxon (2.00 / 0) #9 Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:27:28 PM EST
I wonder if it has a small tank of water that it heats?  The ones I've been using have a series of coils that flames heat as the water flows through them.  It works very well, but any changes in water pressure result in almost instantaneously changed water temperature, so you have to make adjustments from time to time depending on what others in the household are doing with the water supply.  The waste dump machine doesn't seem to affect it, but the sinks definitely do.  Having a small tank as a buffer would even out the temperature maybe?

Lyle

The shortest way home is the longest way 'round....
[ Parent ]

Ya by Gedvondur (2.00 / 0) #4 Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 11:52:35 AM EST
In the US, most instant heaters are electric and require 220.  They overheat, fail, and just generally suck.

A pilot light does take some gas, but a proper modern unit with good insulation generally does pretty well.

My parents installed an electric instant-on in their far bathroom, because it took so long to get hot water there.  After three of them failed and the general dissatisfaction with them (they got ALARMINGLY hot) my Pa pulled it out and hooked the gas hot water back up.

I think the Cheeseburgers have instant-on hot water in the old school house too.  If I remember right, it lead to constant cold showers.

Gedvondur
"If you do not sin, then you too may some day float like a big pink Goodyear blimp of The Lord." -theboz


Never seen an electric one here.... by lylehsaxon (4.00 / 1) #7 Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:18:20 PM EST
I've never seen an electric one here - every one I've used has been gas-fired.  For an instantaneous hot water heater, I would think electricity wouldn't work so well - it takes time for electric coils to get hot, while with flame, it's just "whoommfff!!" and you're at full heat in about one second.

As for reliability, shy of the times they've broken down (over the 23 years I've been using them, they've averaged about five or six years of trouble-free use per machine), they've worked really well.

Everyone has mentioned electric ones... aren't there any gas-fired instantaneous water heaters outside of Japan?

Lyle

The shortest way home is the longest way 'round....
[ Parent ]

There are by lm (2.00 / 0) #17 Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 02:13:13 PM EST
When I was looking into them, though, the contractor said that code requires a larger exhaust pipe than most home owners stateside have. This means that in addition to the cost of putting one in, one also has to put a new hole in one's house. Although, I hear that in some warmer states, they actually put the water heater outside the house which would eliminate that obstacle.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Can an instantaneous water heater be a rocket? by johnny (2.00 / 0) #6 Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:58:42 PM EST
I saw an episode of Mythbusters where the fucking hot water heater makes a rocket that goes half the fucking way to the fucking moon.  Can your instant-on do that? Hunh? I think not.

Hot water heaters win this one hands down. Case closed.
Buy my books, dammit!


Only if it uses flames.... by lylehsaxon (4.00 / 1) #8 Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:21:23 PM EST
Electricity wouldn't do it, but recalibrate those blue flames downward and you could get instant propulsive force....

The shortest way home is the longest way 'round....
[ Parent ]

Synchronicity sucks by LinDze (2.00 / 0) #11 Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 03:21:38 AM EST
So we went for a grand day out at the boardwalk and when we came back the downstairs was flooded. Husi owes me a new tank water heater.

-Lin Dze
Arbeit Macht Frei


Hmmm.... by lylehsaxon (2.00 / 0) #12 Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:41:12 AM EST
Sounds like a response from that strange land across the seas....

The shortest way home is the longest way 'round....
[ Parent ]

The tankless work here well by R343L (2.00 / 0) #16 Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 02:54:45 AM EST
But, then, my roommates (long before I moved in) installed a separate one for each use (one for each shower, one for the kitchen, one for laundry ...) Pretty big capital outlay I imagine, but a hot shower is always possible .. while doing laundry and running the dishwasher. :)

Rachael

"There will be time, there will be time / To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet." -- Eliot


"Instantaneous Water Heaters vs. Tank Water Heaters" | 17 comments (17 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback